Alex Henderson

Interview:

Carl Allen

When Carl Allen, now 53, first emerged in the ‘80s, the term “Young Lion” was often used in connection with the New York City-based drummer and Milwaukee native. Allen was part of the wave of young acoustic jazz improvisers and his hard-swinging yet nuanced playing was mindful of Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Billy Higgins, Philly Joe Jones and other drummers who had come out of the ‘50s. Along the way, Allen has built a long résumé working as a sideman for jazz heavyweights like alto saxophonist Jackie McLean, trumpeter Freddie Hubbard, flugelhornist Art Farmer and tenor saxophonist George Coleman. His own catalogue has ranged from two albums for Atlantic Records (1993’s The Pursuer and 1994’s Testimonial) to dates co-led with bassist Rodney Whitaker for Mack Avenue in the late ‘00s\ (Get Ready and Work to Do). 2014 found Allen forming his group The Art of Elvin, which has been paying homage to the legacies of Blakey and Jones.

The New York City Jazz Record: 30 years have passed since you played on Freddie Hubbard and Woody Shaw’s Double Take for Blue Note Records. In what ways have you evolved as a drummer since the ‘80s? 

Carl Allen: I hope there’s been an evolution. I like to think that as I’ve grown and matured, so has my music. I think I’ve become a better listener. I think that one of the things that comes with maturing is the ability to listen more and speak less. When you’re younger and
you hear stuff, you feel like you have to let people know that you hear it. But when you mature, you don’t always have to do that. When you hear something, youcan acknowledge it in a non-verbal way. Another way I think I’ve grown is in how I orchestrate. I think I’ve
gotten a little better with that over the years. 

TNYCJR: Talk about The Art of Elvin.

CA: The concept behind The Art of Elvin is to use the band as a platform to nurture young talent and, also, to remember Elvin Jones and Art Blakey. The idea is to play music associated with Elvin and the Jazz Messengers as well as playing original material.

TNYCJR: Finding and nurturing young talent is
certainly appropriate for a band focused on Jones and Blakey since they were both great at exposing young, promising musicians.

CA: Absolutely. Both of them were very committed to nurturing young talent and trying to help them fulfill their visions. I’m 53 now and after playing on 200-something records—and after all the people that I’ve played with—I think I also have to do that. It doesn’t mean that I’m the only guy to do it; certainly, there are a lot of other guys who should also be doing
it. But that’s part of the evolution. That’s part of one’s growth and development.

TNYCJR: One thing that separates jazz is that age is more respected. Younger musicians are more likely to look to older musicians for guidance.

CA: It goes back to the musicians supporting one another. The music business is a tough business. But
I’ve never felt that I had it rough and so you should also have it rough. I never had that mindset. If I can
nurture or do something to help younger musicians, I want to do that.

TNYCJR: Although you are associated with straightahead jazz, you have included R&B and rock
songs in your repertoire. The albums you recorded with Rodney Whitaker for Mack Avenue included The Isley Brothers’ “Work to Do”, The Beatles’ “Eleanor
Rigby” and Marvin Gaye’s “Inner City Blues”.

CA: Rodney and I go back 30 years, or close to it—we
played together with [trumpeter] Terence Blanchard and [saxophonist] Donald Harrison. Sometimes I think musicians are too concerned about what other
musicians are going to think about their albums. But I think that as you mature, you become a little bit more
secure. You become more honest. In other words, when Rodney and I did those songs by Marvin Gaye and The Beatles and The Isley Brothers, we weren’t really
concerned with what the jazz police were going to say. And you know that there are jazz police out there
(laughs). But Rodney and I both grew up in the church. We both grew up hearing R&B/soul and, truth be told, a lot of our peers did as well. There was a time when
musicians wanted the jazz police to think they were playing Charlie Parker all the time, but the reality is
that it was not the case. We were also listening to R&B/
soul.

TNYCJR: Bird didn’t listen to jazz exclusively. He was
known for being a country music fan and enjoyed Hank Williams, Sr.

CA: That’s part of the evolution of the music. Many of the tunes that we now know as standards in jazz—
“Someday My Prince Will Come”, “On Green Dolphin Street”—were pop tunes of their day, whether they came from Broadway or films. At this point in my life, I’m not really concerned with what the jazz police are going to say. I’m just trying to be honest and express
myself.

TNYCJR: For so long, a lot of great R&B and rock songs didn’t receive enough attention in improvised music. They were ignored by many or played as note-for-note
covers by smooth jazz musicians, but there weren’t enough examples of Stevie Wonder or Marvin Gaye
songs being used for serious jazz improvisation.

CA: I agree with that. One thing I learned playing with Jackie McLean, and also with George Coleman, is that if you have a great melody, you can do a lot of different things with it. And that’s kind of how Rodney and I were approaching those songs.

TNYCJR: You and Rodney performed The Temptations’
hit “Get Ready” in a Coltrane-ish way.

CA: Rodney and I were just expressing what we felt.

TNYCJR: You and Rodney also performed “With You
I’m Born Again,” the 1979 hit by Billy Preston and Syreeta Wright. That song could have easily lent itself
to a smooth jazz version, but you played it as a serious straightahead jazz ballad.

CA: I’ve always been on a quest to solidify, even more, the relationship between gospel and jazz because that’s where I come from and that’s where I am now.

TNYCJR: Any really fond memories of Jackie McLean?

CA: Oh, boy. There are so many. Jackie and I had so much in common. One time, we were on the road and I was getting ready to leave the hotel and take a walk.
Jackie asked where I was going and I said, “I’m just going around the corner.” Jackie said, “It sounds like
you don’t want me to know where you’re going.” I said, “Oh, no, Jackie. I’m just going to a stationary
store. I love stationary. I’ve always loved stationary.” Jackie said, “I’m going with you.” I found out that
Jackie also loved stationary and, man, Jackie and I were in that store for about an hour and a half. That
was when we realized that we had some little weird things in common. And Jackie was a very loyal person.

TNYCJR: You had a rapport with Freddie Hubbard.

CA: One of the things I remember about Freddie was that he never cracked a note. I played with a lot of
musicians and cracking notes was kind of like a normal thing. I would say, “What’s wrong with his horn? Why isn’t he cracking notes?” And they would say, “Carl, we’re talking about Freddie Hubbard.”

TNYCJR: And George Coleman?

CA: When I started playing with George, I was impressed by the fact that he could call so many
different tunes. George never rehearsed at all. With George, you had to always listen.

TNYCJR: What about saxophonist Don Braden?

CA: When I first met Don, he was a student at Harvard. After that, I brought him into Freddie Hubbard’s
band—and he was a very talented composer. Don always had a reputation for writing very hard
harmonics. Don has a brilliant mind. When I first met him, he was studying computer science and computer programming. Don actually had a business on the side
doing computer programming. Don was always very entrepreneurial in spirit, which is something we
always used to talk about as well.

TNYCJR: You also had a minor outside of music.

CA: When I started college, I was majoring in music and minoring in physics. A mentor of mine said, “Why are you minoring in something? If you have something
to fall back on, you’re going to fall back on it.” That
changed my whole way of looking at things. •

For more information, visit carlallen.com. Allen is at Smoke
Mar. 6th-8th with Buster Williams and Mar. 27th-29th with
his The Art of Elvin project. See Calendar.

Recommended Listening:
• Jackie McLean Quintet—Dynasty (Triloka, 1988)
• Benny Green Trio—Testifyin’! (Live at the Village
Vanguard) (Blue Note, 1991)
• Message—The Art of Blakey (King-Evidence, 1993)
• Carl Allen—Testimonial (Atlantic, 1994)
• Benny Golson—Terminal 1 (Concord, 2004)
• Christian McBride & Inside Straight—People Music (Mack Avenue, 2013)